Excellent metered response, thank you. /ALE
> On Behalf Of Tim Mooney
>
> In regard to: Re: [Networker] Moving away from Networker,
> Albert Eddie...:
>
> > Let me preface this with I only have 1 year under my
> EMC/Networker belt.
> >
> > NETWORKER BACK BURNER?
> > Um I have only been working with Networker for a year. Started with
> > 7.2.1 and was offered 7.2.2 but elected to wait for
> 7.3.1... I would
> > consider 7.3.1 a major release and different enough to
> warrant an 8.0
> > designation. That is a marketing thing not a technical
> thing though.
> > By making 7.3.x designator they have drawn a line in the
> sand and said
> > 7.2.x will be the last of that type of program. Kudos to EMC for
> > making the decision.
>
> I was told by EMC executives that the only reason that 7.3
> wasn't called
> 7.5 or 8.0 is that they had already put out a product roadmap
> that some of their VARs and perhaps largest customers had
> seen that indicated that certain large features (I have no
> idea what, and I didn't care to ask) would be in 8.0. In
> other words, 8.0 was spoken for, so they couldn't name the
> release that became 7.3 an 8.0 release, even though it would
> have gotten that bump under other circumstances.
>
> > Support
> > I have to tell you I can't agree with you on support.
>
> I have to say I agree 100% with Dave, both on the support and
> on the other issues he raised. He summarized my feelings and
> thoughts better than I could have (way to go Dave!). The
> only thing that was wrong with his list (from my perspective)
> is that it wasn't long enough. ;-) We have at least two
> other huge (for us, but admittedly not for all sites) gripes
> with the product that weren't on his list, but I agree with
> everything that was on his list. Everything.
>
> > (reference my time
> > working with Networker compared to yours)
>
> Exactly. You understand that you're still hitting the early
> issues and roadblocks, that support does a good job on. Once
> those no longer trip you up and you start asking support the
> "hard" questions, your feelings might change.
>
> I'm not saying we *always* get terrible support. I'm saying
> that we sometimes, perhaps even often, get support that's
> "less than satisfying".
>
> > I have found the support staff
> > to be extremely knowledgeable. My biggest complaint (never really
> > complained about it) is also a compliment. There have been
> a number of
> > times when I called for an area expert
> (Exchange/Oracle/SQL) and that
> > person was off in training. Your premium funding at work,
> they train
> > their people continuously. Which I like. I have not had a
> question go
> > unanswered. Heck when I squealed about not being able to
> get a hold of
> > the product developer The product manager contacted me
> personally. If
> > that is not a responsive company I don't know what is.
>
> One thing I *do* like about support these days is that when a
> frontline support person sends you email, their signature
> generally includes the email addresses for one or more of
> their management staff. It's like including a comment card
> with your check at a restaurant -- it's easy to provide
> feedback, and it really does show that they care.
>
> And I have no doubts that they care about providing good
> support. They're trying, and I appreciate that. However, as
> the person that's responsible for a mission critical
> enterprise application like NetWorker, I'm afraid I sometimes
> have to do my Yoda impression and say that "try" doesn't cut it.
>
> > Sale of Legato to EMC
> > Was the sale of Legato to EMC a mistake? Are you kidding
> me? EMC aka
> > Deep Pockets, top shelf quality solutions buying Legato, how could
> > that be anything but a great thing for anyone using Legato
> products?
> > It may take them a while to assimilate every nuance and
> process but I
> > believe that was a great thing for legato product users.
>
> > Cost for Support... You get what you pay for. 24/7 support,
> some need
> > it some don't. I believe we are paying 9-5 support right now. How
> > could you pay $35k a year for support and have any kind of
> problem what so ever?
>
> That's a darn good question, but yet it's the same situation
> for us. We have fewer clients than Dave but probably more
> clientpacks and add-ons, because even with the Edu discount
> that we too get, our renewals have also become very
> expensive. Our last renewal price was in the low 30K range.
>
> Yet our experience with support mirrors his, pretty much exactly.
>
> To keep things positive though: My experience with renewals
> was, for years, exactly the same as Dave's, but our last
> renewal was much better.
> For the three years prior to 2005, I never got a renewal
> reminder, and for each of those years, support lapsed and we
> quit getting the quarterly subscriptions. It got to the
> point that I would mark it on my calendar and I literally had
> to call Legato and pester them for a quote so I could renew
> support and subscription. We renew in May, and in 2004 I
> didn't remember to call them until mid-June, and when I did
> remember and tried to renew, it took weeks to get a quote.
> We had issues we needed to talk to support about too, so we
> were held up for a few days waiting for them to do a "support
> blast" so that I could call support.
>
> This last renewal was much, much better though (way to go
> Diane!). Diane from EMC started calling us several weeks
> before our renewal anniversary, and when our accounting was a
> little slow she contacted me several times to see what the
> status was. That's the kind of experience I want with a
> renewal, but it's the first and only time I've had that
> experience with EMC/Legato. I'm hoping it continues.
>
> > I
> > would think whomever you paid for that support contract would be
> > kissing your proverbial RAM chips to ensure you are happy.
> Residual income...
> > KNOW IT.
>
> You would think, but that's just not the case.
>
> > THIS LIST
> > I prefer this list to be outside of EMC. A lot of manufactures and
> > even Microsoft has internal Blogs or chat boards.
>
> I've noticed that EMC has started forums for their products,
> including one for NetWorker. I suppose I could frequent
> both, but this list is where it's at, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> > This list works well for
> > me. Less politics more scoop. EMC does support this list
> indirectly by
> > having moles errr employees on the list reading and
> learning from us
> > as well. If the person sending a problem to the list has a support
> > contract, I could imagine the team he is assigned to hearing of the
> > problem and him receiving an unprompted reply.
>
> You might imagine that, but in 10 years with the product,
> that's never once been my experience. Hope springs eternal,
> though. ;-)
>
> > But you always have to
> > factor in the ATTORNEYS to any good intention. Every contact an EMC
> > employee has with a client is "exposure" according to an attorney.
> > Which is why attorneys would tell you if they don't ask, you don't
> > tell. Your exposure clock doesn't tick until they talk to you
> > directly. It is an ugly legal world we live in.
>
> You make a good point. I also understand that the support
> staff that does pay attention to this list is probably
> overworked and possibly even underpaid, so even the ones that
> would otherwise be proactive about helping customers just
> can't afford to go looking for work.
>
> It would be nice if EMC had a few knowledgeable support staff
> that were given carte blanche to "patrol" this list and at
> least *acknowledge* bugs that people mention on the list.
>
> I really have to say that I'm 100% on board with what Dave
> originally wrote. We had a pretty serious issue with
> NetWorker last year, and it was nearly the straw that broke
> the camel's back for management at my site. I've got 10
> years invested in NetWorker, so I lobbied for sticking with
> the product, but sometimes I wonder if that was the right
> move. If it wasn't so darn painful to do an RFP and switch
> to something else, we might have already done so. Who knows,
> maybe next year I'll be joining Dave on the TSM list. ;-)
>
> Still, I really do think that NetWorker was far and away the
> best product in its class when we started with it, and I
> think there are areas where it's still the best. I honestly
> hope that EMC's stewardship of the product can return it to
> being the king of the enterprise backup/restore products.
> Some days it just seems to be extra hard to keep that hope going.
>
> Tim
> --
> Tim Mooney
> mooney AT dogbert.cc.ndsu.NoDak DOT edu
> Information Technology Services (701) 231-1076 (Voice)
> Room 242-J6, IACC Building (701) 231-8541 (Fax)
> North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND 58105-5164
>
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