So I'd heard, but I don't have the liberty of choice, so I'm stuck with it
on the AS system.

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua S. Bassi [SMTP:jbassi AT GLORYWORKS DOT COM]
> Sent: ä ñôèîáø 21 2000 17:33
> To:   ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
> Subject:      Re: Slow restore for large NT client outcome.. appeal to
> Tivoli
> 
> AS/400 you say?  It's probably the slowest *SM server out of the 9
> supported.  NT TSM server are typically much faster than their
> 400 counterparts.
> 
> 
> --
> Joshua S. Bassi
> Senior Technical Consultant
> Symatrix Technology, Inc.
> jbassi AT gloryworks DOT com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU]On Behalf Of
> Mike Glassman - Admin
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 11:58 PM
> To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
> Subject: Re: Slow restore for large NT client outcome.. appeal to Tivoli
> 
> 
> Kelly,
> 
> I don't know regarding Arcserve as you couldn't pay me to go near it, but
> BE
> I do know.
> 
> Restore of a 600MB directory (talking small here) on ADSM to a Netware
> server takes up to (no exageration here) 6 hours. And this is after we
> made
> all sorts of changes (not me, our AS400 guy as that's where it sits, I
> just
> complain) to the system.
> 
> Under BE, the same 600MB takes under 45 minutes.
> 
> In both cases we are talking about a backup system sitting on another
> system
> and not the backed up one.
> 
> Mike
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kelly J. Lipp [SMTP:lipp AT storsol DOT com]
> > Sent: ã ñôèîáø 20 2000 23:38
> > To:   ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
> > Subject:      Re: Slow restore for large NT client outcome.. appeal to
> > Tivoli
> >
> > Could someone with experience doing large restores with ArcServe or
> > BackupExec provide some performance numbers?  I've been in shops where
> the
> > backups were taking a very long time.  Longer than my TSM backup took.
> I
> > never witnessed a restore but how can it be better.
> >
> > I want the facts.  I'm tired of hearing about how much faster ArcServe
> and
> > BackupExec are (in theory) compared to TSM in reality.
> >
> > I'm sick and tired of it and I won't take it anymore!
> >
> > This is what happens when you TSM 24 hours per day.  Your brain.  Your
> > brain
> > on TSM.  Not a pretty picture.
> >
> > Kelly J. Lipp
> > Storage Solutions Specialists, Inc.
> > PO Box 51313
> > Colorado Springs CO 80949-1313
> > (719) 531-5926
> > Fax: (719) 260-5991
> > Email: lipp AT storsol DOT com
> > www.storsol.com
> > www.storserver.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU]On Behalf 
> > Of
> > Keith E. Pruitt
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 12:03 PM
> > To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
> > Subject: Re: Slow restore for large NT client outcome.. appeal to Tivo
> >
> >
> > Jeff, we too have a problem with small files. At first I thought it was
> a
> > Netware thing because the servers we have the greatest amount of files
> on
> > reside
> > on the Netware servers.
> > But reading emails from several users I see that I may have a future
> > problem
> > on
> > the NT side. We store Word and WordPerfect docs on two Netware 5
> machines
> > and
> > each server holds about 1.8 Million files apiece. Needless to say these
> > files
> > are not that big. It took over 11 hours to back each of the servers up
> and
> > they
> > total around 30GB per server. We were forced to perform a Full backup
> > because
> > our director and other new admins don't understand and feel comfortable
> > with
> > the
> > "incremental forever" logic. I would hate to see what a restore would
> look
> > like.
> > In contrast, we just backed up a directory on an NT server we are using
> > for
> > our
> > Backoffice conversion and that dir totals 35GB. That took 2h20m. We also
> > performed a large restore from one AIX machine to another one of about
> > 25GB.
> > Less than 2 hours to restore. We have tweaked our Netware and AIX ADSM
> > server
> > according to performance guides and other suggestions and still have
> > issues
> > with
> > small files.
> >
> > We will be moving our documents from Netware to NT soon and our NT guys
> > like
> > to
> > refer to ADSM as crap. They are used to Arcserve but our now raving
> about
> > BackupExec. It is going to be extremely difficult to explain if our huge
> > machine
> > can't keep up with their backup server. I know that overall ADSM is a
> > better
> > and
> > more stable product but what do you do when you have a mixture of
> servers
> > with
> > large databases(ADSM's favorite) and (the more common) servers with
> small
> > files
> > that Arcserve and others like? I'm hoping another ADSM/TSM user has some
> > tricks
> > or tweaks that can help in this area. Anyone from any universities out
> > there?
> >
> > ____________________Reply Separator____________________
> > Subject:    Slow restore for large NT client outcome.. appeal to Tivoli
> >
> > Author: Jeff Connor <connorj AT NIAGARAMOHAWK DOT COM>
> > Date:       09/20/2000 12:21 PM
> >
> > Our NT group was a hard sell for replacing Arcserve with TSM.
> > Since the switch, I have taken quite a beating about TSM restore
> > performance.  Our NT admins take the position, "we'll try TSM but
> > if the performance doesn't improve we are going with a tried and
> > true solution like Compaq Enterprise Backup.  TSM seems to us
> > like a UNIX product trying to make it in the NT space.  It is not
> > typically selected by companies for NT backup and recovery".
> > Not a word for word quote but generally sums up their position.
> > The Compaq solution would use Arcserve from what I've been told.
> >
> > I know Tivoli/IBM have tried to address the small files issue
> > with things like small file aggregation but I haven't noticed
> > much improvement from version to version for big restores of
> > servers with small files.  I've heard different reasons for slow
> > performance with small files over the years like the amount of
> > TSM database lookups, NT file system processing/inefficiencies,
> > etc.    I have
> > suggested to our NT admins that we break that big D: partition
> > into multiple smaller partitions so I can collocate by filespace
> > and restore multiple drives concurrently.  Frankly, they are not
> > interested in changing the way they configure their servers to
> > accommodate the backup software.  They feel they would not have
> > to do this with Arcserve or other more common NT backup products.
> > I've tried tests using share names for folders and performing
> > backups/restores using the UNC name, collocating the data by
> > filespace and running concurrent restores.  My tests showed
> > improved elapsed time but this scheme would be tough to maintain.
> > In a full server restore scenario  I'd need to create the folders
> > and shares for the target restore which means we'd need to keep
> > track of that info some place.  I'd constantly have to monitor
> > growth in all the folders to make sure I've carved up the drive
> > in fairly equal parts to optimize for restore, etc.  Not a good
> > solution either.
> >
> > Does anyone else see the poor performance for restoring clients
> > with lots of small files and feel that this is a problem Tivoli
> > needs to address?  I do.  If this issue is not resolved then I
> > won't be able to keep using TSM to backup our NT servers.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jeff Connor
> > Niagara Mohawk Power Corp.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------- Forwarded by Jeffrey P Connor/IT/NMPC on
> > 09/20/2000 10:32 AM ---------------------------
> >
> >
> > Jeffrey P Connor
> > 09/13/2000 01:20 PM
> >
> > To:   ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
> > cc:
> >
> > Subject:  Slow restore for large NT client.. help!
> >
> >
> >      We are in the process of restoring a subdirectory of a very
> > large NT client file space (D:) and it is running really slow.  I
> > thought I'd see if any of you have some ideas as to where we can
> > look for bottlenecks.
> > The client config is:
> >      Compaq proliant 5500
> >      400MB RAM
> >      two 400MHz Xeon processors.
> >      ~160GB of disk in a Compaq disc array made up of 18.2GB
> > drives
> >      Windows NT 4.0 SP6a
> >      TSM client for NT 3.7.2.01
> >      Applicable TSM client options:
> >           tcpwindowsize 63
> >           tcpbuffsize         31
> >           tcpnodelay       yes
> >           txnbytelimit       25600
> >
> > TSM server config
> >      TSM for OS/390 V3.7.1.0
> >      OS/390 2.6
> >      9672-R55
> >      TSM server DB cache hit ratio 98.5%
> >      ApplicableTSM server options:
> >           TXNGROUPMAX 256
> >           Databufferpoolsize  262144
> >
> >
> >
> > Network path:
> >      NT Client ----100Mbit Ethernet --> Switch -- 100Mbit
> > Ethernet--> Cisco 7513 rtr -- 155Mbit ATM -> Cisco 5500 atm
> > switch -->IBM 2216 -->ESCON --> S/390 TSM Server
> >
> >
> > Now that you have the background here's what we are seeing.
> >
> > Only 4.7GB have been transfered in 4 hours.  We are attempting to
> > restore one subdirectory on the D: drive first.
> > TSM command line client command entered was:
> >      RES -subd=y \\filecluster2\d$\groups\ugitoper\*
> > The D: drive has approximately 2,000,000 files.  Lots of small
> > files.  NT client is a file and print server.
> > A network sniffer trace shows mostly large chunks of data sent,
> > no restransmits, then the NT client appears to throttle back,
> > decreasing the tcpwindow size as if it could not accept the data
> > as fast as TSM was sending it.  Windows sizes go to zero at times
> > then bounces back to large window size(64512).
> > NT perfmon shows plenty of memory and cpu with minimal disk
> > queueing.
> >
> >
> >
> > This brings me to my question.  What tools can I use or what
> > metrics in perfmon can I check to see "under the covers"
> > to determine what is slowing us down.  The network support staff
> > feels the network bandwidth is there and feel the NT client is
> > throttleling things back.  The NT support staff says the NT
> > client machine is not overwhelmed in terms of CPU, Memory, disk,
> > etc. they feel TSM is the problem.
> >
> > What could be the bottleneck on the NT client and what tool can I
> > use to find it?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your assistance,
> > Jeff Connor
> > Niagara Mohawk Power Corp