Arno Lehmann wrote:
> Hi,
>
> 16.12.2008 18:14, Kevin Keane wrote:
>
>> Alex Chekholko wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:05:49 +0100
>>> Sven-Hendrik Haase <sh AT lutzhaase DOT com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Other advantages I see compared to using mailing lists only:
>>>> 1) Improved overview since it is visually more pleasing and more
>>>> sub-categories can be used.
>>>>
>
> That is a disadvantage IMO. Whenever I have to use a forum for support
> thingies, I find I have to navigate many subcategories - often because
> other users seem to have difficulties placing their posts into the
> right category, or during a conversation, the topic moves.
>
> Searching in the forum systems I know is usually very limited,
> compared to what I can do with Thunderbird's search functions (and I
> know other mail clients are much more flexible!) or, if everything
> fails, using egrep on the mail storage itself.
>
> Finally, mail allows me to keep the whole history of this list on my
> site (disk space is cheap, and Bacula can back up my mail storage). I
> see no way to easily access a larger forum locally.
>
I think you are making some rather large assumptions here, namely that
all users have the freedom you apparently enjoy.
Many companies have policies against using gmail, yahoo mail etc.; all
mail must go through their corporate mail server, which is often
constrained by a 500 MB Exchange mailbox size.
And your scheme breaks down completely when you are away from your own
personal computer, or, worse, when your hard disk crashes.
>>>> I'm not suggesting the removal of mailing lists in favor of forums, I'm
>>>> merely suggesting the forums should be added to the main site, mainly in
>>>> order to get support.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> One could also view them as the same thing just with a different interface.
>>>
>>> Curtis Preston's site already translates this list into forum form:
>>> http://www.backupcentral.com/phpBB2/two-way-mirrors-of-external-mailing-lists-3/bacula-25/
>>>
>>>
>> Admitted, it's quite browseable as an archive. But posting from it? How
>> many more accounts do I have to create all over the place, and how many
>> more passwords to track? No thanks.
>>
>
> The same here... I would simply not use a forum.
>
ONE forum per product is no worse than subscribing to a mailing list -
if anything, it's easier.
>> One signup per product for a mailing
>> list or forum is acceptable. TWO for the same product? That's much.
>>
>> That is why any forum or the like should be ONE single message one
>> that's easily searchable (and I agree with other posters that the SF
>> browsing is frustrating, to term it politely). Preferably, there should
>> be a mechanism to prevent republishing on other sites (Currently, many
>> sites are republishing mailing lists for advertising $$$, and it makes
>> Googling a real chore).
>>
>> That said, I do think that a forum format for posting would be good.
>> Right now, I accidentally deleted one of the emails in this thread, and
>> suddenly it is impossible for me to respond to it.
>>
>
> Seems to be a question of how you set up your mail client mostly -
> myself, for example, I don't delete mail in the mailing list folders.
> Even if I deleted it, I could find it in the Trash folder.
>
So you are saying that everybody should configure their email for the
convenience of the bacula mailing list? From reading your posts, I think
you are one of the bacula experts who spends 80% of your workday with
it. For me, who hopefully soon spends 1% of my workday with it, quite
frankly, I don't see why I should have to reconfigure my whole email
system, my whole archiving system, just for this one mailing list.
>> but people who have another job to complete, and bacula
>> may be just 1% of that job. For such people, like me, an email list
>> means that my mailbox gets filled up every day with posts from people
>> who have questions completely unrelated to how I use bacula.
>>
>
> Easy to ignore...
>
> I don't see why a forum would be more useful then. Finding new,
> interesting things only works when all the other users place their
> postings into the right section, and use the right keywords in the
> subjects.
>
Reality proves that forums work quite well in this respect. Just look at
Open-Audit for an example.
> There are no sections in email lists, so this is no problem.
Actually, there are. bacula-user vs. bacula-developer. Most forums only
have a few categories, too.
> The subject problem remains, but is the same for mailing list and forum.
>
> But, with an email list, you automatically get everything that is
> posted, so you don't have to search a lot remotely - you can, instead,
> do all the necessary searching locally, which should be a lot quicker
> and more flexible.
>
Again, you are assuming that everybody has that level of control over
their email. And you are also assuming that the search in Outlook is
superior to Google. Have you tried complex queries in Outlook? Or
Thunderbird for that matter?
>> As a matter
>> of fact, I get more emails from the bacula mailing list every day than
>> pass my spam filter! Once I have bacula running, hopefully I will not
>> need this mailing list for weeks on end.
>>
>
> So you are mainly interested in replies to your own mails - that's ok,
> and I believe with a decent mail client, you should be able to achieve
> that easily, either using automatic filtering, or using the threaded
> view plus setting the sort order sensibly.
>
Point is, why should 90% of the users of the mailing lists have to jump
through hoops to begin with?
>> With all that said, I think there already is an excellent solution
>> available that solved all these problems: Yahoo Groups. OK, Open-Source
>> purists probably don't like it because it's proprietary. Quite frankly,
>> though, I have to say: "so what?"
>>
>
> Quite frankly - feel free to create such a group :-)
>
I'd be delighted to, as long as you shut down this mailing list and
point everybody there. Otherwise, all that would do is create yet more
fragmentation.
> - You can post by email or on the Web.
>
>
> Actually, I don't even want to post by web. I prefer a plain text
> display, where I can navigate in and among mails by keystrokes, don't
> have any advertisements displayed, and can rely on most other users
> sensibly quouting and trimming - something that, in my experience,
> requires quite a bit of mouse-shuffling with a web-based interface.
>
No problem - that's the whole point.
But why should everybody else HAVE to adhere to your preferences?
>> - It preserves threading properly (unless somebody using email breaks it
>>
>
> No problem with any decent mail reader.
>
That's assuming you want to see all your mail threaded. 90% of my email
is better read in an unthreaded format. It goes back to: why should I
have to adjust my whole email system just for the bacula mailing list?
>> - Nearly everybody already has a Yahoo account anyway - and tied to an
>> email address.
>>
>
> Now that's a big claim. For example, I don't have a yahoo account, and
> I'm pretty sure I never will.
>
That's why I said "Nearly" ;-)
>> - You can turn off email delivery, and still participate in the group.
>>
>
> Actually, I think we've got a nice group of very active users here who
> probably don't even *want* to turn off mail delivery, but instead
> wouldn't show much activity if they had to use a web-based interface.
>
> People searching for help can easily unsubscribe from the mailing list
> after their questions are answered.
>
But see, the point is that then they have to re-subscribe the next time
they have a question. Signing up for a mailing list is just as tedious
as signing up for a forum, and far more tedious than simply turning
email on or off.
--
Kevin Keane
Owner
The NetTech
Turn your NetWORRY into a NetWORK!
Office: 866-642-7116
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