Veritas-bu

[Veritas-bu] NDMP Bug for CIFS Only Filer

2001-01-17 23:07:58
Subject: [Veritas-bu] NDMP Bug for CIFS Only Filer
From: Pearson, Kim (STP) kim.pearson AT guidant DOT com
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 22:07:58 -0600
Grant -

Thank you VERY much for this information. I have looked up the bug, and
although I don't see a work around posted, this certainly describes our
situation right down to the very last detail.

For all of you who have responded - thank you. Apparently, I forgot to make
an important detail completely clear - this is a CIFS only filer, backing up
approximately 20% of the total data every night during a "differential
incremental" NDMP/NBU backup. This is KILLING our capacity for tapes in the
Storage Tek 9740 we are using for backups. 

Funny - we run virus scans every night on about 1/5 of the file systems,
rotating the files that get scanned every night. 1/5 = 20%...hmmmm.
Coincidence? I don't think so. I believe the scanning software that is being
used in McAfee. If you check out the bug referenced below, it talks about
WIN32 API's incorrectly resetting ctime. I'm certain that this is the
problem.

At any rate, I look forward to hearing directly from CS and getting this
issue resolved.

Thank you, thank you!

Kim

*************** Attention Veritas-bu People:
*********************************

If you haven't read the string on this and have NDMP, check out some of the
responses below. Grant (from Network Appliance) has been very helpful, and
has provided answers or pointed out upcoming features that will address some
of my concerns with NDMP, which is very promising. Hey - that includes you
NetApp critics!! I had to say something nice - I was a little harsh on them
earlier - sorry (:


-----Original Message-----
From: Melvin, Grant [mailto:Grant.Melvin AT netapp DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 8:18 PM
To: Pearson, Kim (STP)
Cc: Melvin, Grant
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media
server s



Hi Kim,

> "Our most pressing issue right now is the incremental backups
> taking up so much space."

        I believe this is due to bug #17767:

http://now.netapp.com/NOW/cgi-bin/bol?Type=Detail&Display=17767

        I've asked CS to contact you so that you can get
        the correct Data Ontap release to use the supplied
        fix. I believe this should resolve this issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Pearson, Kim (STP) [mailto:kim.pearson AT guidant DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:04 AM
To: 'Melvin, Grant'
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media
server s


Grant -

Thanks for all of the information. Our most pressing issue right now is the
incremental backups taking up so much space. It has actually put us in an
emergency situation, since no one in their right mind could have planned for
such astronomical tape consumption. Our brand new tape silo is bursting at
the seams! Any help you can give us on this would be spectacular. See
additional comments below.

Considering the expense of the licensing and support, paying to have a
consultant come out to fix a bug would only add insult to injury. We are on
a platinum-type support agreement with NetApp - would this be covered under
our support? Haven't been engaged much up to now, so I don't know what
options have been explored (I'm a selfish UNIX biggot, and wasn't concerned
until I had to start swapping out silo tapes that were never supposed to
have to leave the library!)

Regards,

Kim Pearson

-----Original Message-----
From: Melvin, Grant [mailto:Grant.Melvin AT netapp DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 12:45 PM
To: Pearson, Kim (STP)
Cc: Linn, Greg; Melvin, Grant
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media
server s


Hi Kim,

Wow - I didn't realize that this list included such high powered
individuals! This is very cool. Can I assume that you have input into the
development of future NDMP releases?

        I've cc'd Greg Linn who is the development manager for NDMP
        itself. I'm responsible for the backup, restore & replication
        products which ultimately intergrate with NDMP. FYI, Greg is
        leading the V4 specification effort which is

We have had a number of issues with NDMP, including but not limited to the
restore speed. Strictly speaking, I see the lack of flexibility in the
protocol as the number one issue, which encompasses a lot of other related
problems. Full backup clients are so much better - the thin OS, and lack of
features becomes a real burden.

Here are some:

        1) HUGE incremental backups. We are backing up ~200 GB/night on a
1.1 TB system. That's roughly 20% a night, and NO - we don't change 20% of
our data on a daily basis. The backup we run for dailies is NBU
"Differential Incremental", and weeklies are "Cumulative Incremental". The
daily backups are the same size as the weekly backups. I have to assume
something is wrong there. That simply shouldn't happen, and it's costing us
a LOT of tapes and slots!

        This is great feedback. I need to do some research, but I think
we've
        had some issues where virus scanning triggers subsequent large
incremental
        backups. We *may* have an NDMP option to help, but I need to check.
        I take it this filer is NT only and has the volume and qtree style
set to
        NTFS?  ############ Kim - YES, NTFS. Help wanted...
###################

        2) The directly attached DLT drives can't be used by non-NDMP
clients. This BITES - constrains the "shareability" of that resource.

        We are evolving new solutions to help customer share tape drives,
        either between more filers in a homogeneous environment or in
        a true sharing context, but its taking time to work out some of
        the issues:

        1. VERITAS & NetApp are working together to support NDMP backups
           back to the NBU Media Server. This requires work on part of
           VERITAS 
        ############### Kim - talking to Veritas about this as well, since
they sold it to us ( ;  ######################

        2. ATL finally announced their ethernet connected library that
           allows filers to be backed up to a shared tape library which
           is supported by VERITAS 3.4.
        ################# - Kim - what about Storage Tek?
###################

        3. We are working on new FC SAN supported configurations, today
           we support a few libraries via the Vixel 8100 switch, but
           there is no application support for dynamic drive sharing,
           such as SSO. Check out:
         
############# Kim - I'll be very interested to see what happens in the SAN
support arena. We are keen on SANs, and will most likely be putting it in on
our backup system first. I do believe it's not SAN or NAS, but SAN and
NAS...################

http://www.netapp.com/osn/info

http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/olio/GOLD

        3) Restores take forever - would be nice to have an intelligent
backup client, that knows what tape to get and where to look for said file.
The backup index for NDMP is skeletal at best. My true NBU clients manage to
get small files restored in minutes. NDMP clients take hours.

        NDMP has an implied "Direct Access Restore" (DAR) functionality
        defined for doing fast restores. NetApp has sent back information
        to do this for a few releases of Ontap, but it requires application
        changes to support the request. NetApp and VERITAS are working on
        supplying this functionality in a future release of NBU. If you
        need more info, you should talk to VERITAS, since I'm not at
        liberty to provide their product plans or timescales.

If you could give us advice on #1, we would be a lot less unhappy. Right
now, the NAS is taking up over 50% of the slots in our 9740 tape library,
which is unacceptable.

        Yip, let me get back to you on this. Where (geographically) are
        you located Kim? We have backup specialist SEs in each sales area
        and it may be worth someone visit to help you out here.

BTW - I have received a ton of responses to that first e-mail I sent out.
Just because the users are quiet does not mean they are happy. They are
probably doing what I'm going to do - throw it out, and go with something
that works.  I have attended several meetings in the last few months,
including Veritas Vision 2000, and NO ONE WAS HAPPY with the NetApp backup
scenarios. One woman actually gave a Breakout Session on backing up a
relatively small NAS - she talked about her 56 hour weekend backup window.
In real companies, we DON'T HAVE 56 HOUR BACKUP WINDOWS!!! That's not
acceptable, even once a month. DRP for a NAS is UGLY.

        Thanks for all the input. I think at this end since we've been
        pushing out solution after solution we thought we were doing
        better than it seems. We are aware of certain hot topics and
        we're working on them with our partners such as VERITAS. Thanks
        for the detailed infomation. I'll get back to you about these
        huge incrementals as soon as I can.

        BTW, did you log any support cases on this with either VERITAS
        or NetApp?

> Just because the users are quiet does not mean they are happy.

        Yip, I've been trying to get a ndmp-users AT ndmp DOT org e-mail
        list setup for everyone to gripe on, but it hasn't happened
        yet! We already have ndmp-tech AT ndmp DOT org for the developers
        specifying the new standard (which is really a clean up of v2
        & v3 with extensibility support added).

Cheers,
        Grant

-----Original Message-----
From: Melvin, Grant [mailto:Grant.Melvin AT netapp DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 11:35 AM
To: 'Bob Bakh'; Pearson, Kim (STP); veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
Cc: Melvin, Grant
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media
server s



Hi Kim,

        I'm more than curious. I joined this thread a few
        months back after hearing that NDMP was getting a
        bad reputation and wanted to see for myself. Thus
        far this is the first NDMP related e-mail that I've
        seen (and there are a lot of e-mails I can tell
        you). I havn't went back through any archives &
        don't intend to (at this point), but I'd like to
        get more details on your NDMP issues either privately
        or publically on this list.

Cheers,
        Grant

=========== grant AT netapp DOT com  ========== Grant Melvin
===                                  === Software Development Manager 
===                                  === Data Availability & Management
=== |\  |  __ ___  /\    __   __     === Network Appliance
=== | \ | |__  |  /__\  |__| |__|    === 475 East Java Drive
=== |  \| |__  | /    \ |    |   (R) === Sunnyvale 
===                                  === California, 94089
===                                  === Tel:(408)822-6761
=========== Network Appliance ========== Fax:(408)822-4578

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Bakh [mailto:bbakh AT veritas DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:23 AM
To: Pearson, Kim (STP); veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media
server s


There should be no problem, but what is the issue with NDMP?

Just curious.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Pearson, Kim (STP) [mailto:kim.pearson AT guidant DOT com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:11 AM
To: veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Sharing library between NT and UNIX media servers
Importance: High


Are there any issues we need to be aware of when sharing a Storage Tek 9740
with an NT media server? 

We are currently using a Sun E450 as the master/media server. We have a
Network Appliance attached to two of the DLT drives on the 9740, using NDMP
for backups (BIG MISTAKE!!!). We would like to move the NetApp backups to an
NT media server, and LOSE NDMP forever! The NT media server would then mount
NetApp shares over the network, and backup the NT media server drives as if
they are local drives. Of course, this means network traffic, but never mind
that. Anything is better than NDMP. Bottom line - we need to move the two
DLT drives off of the NAS, and put them on an NT device. Any control issues?
Sharing library problems? Other info - NBU 3.2, NT 4.0, Solaris 2.6...

Any and all comments welcome and appreciated!!

Kim
_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
_______________________________________________
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu



<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>
  • [Veritas-bu] NDMP Bug for CIFS Only Filer, STP <=