ADSM-L

Re: Journaling

2002-11-09 14:46:24
Subject: Re: Journaling
From: DFrance <DFrance-TSM AT ATT DOT NET>
To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 13:45:05 -0600
Nice response, Zlatko --- I was about to say some of the same!

I agree, and would like for Geoff to reply about what he sees, relative to
the GUI window (one clear indicator).  Do his SAN drives appear under the
"Local" branch or "Network"?  (I noticed at my old 4.2 level, my
locally-defined shares were listed under "Network" --- \\server\uploads was
there, it even had the local path in parenthesis, on the c$ drive.)

For myself, I am most interested in learning if one of the SANergy solutions
will be supported by JBB -- the config. where the MDC is on Win2K, owns the
network shares, etc.


Don France
Technical Architect -- Tivoli Certified Consultant
Tivoli Storage Manager, WinNT/2K, AIX/Unix, OS/390
San Jose, Ca
(408) 257-3037
mailto:don_france AT ayett DOT net (change aye to a for replies)

Professional Association of Contract Employees
(P.A.C.E. -- www.pacepros.com)



-----Original Message-----
From: ADSM: Dist Stor Manager [mailto:ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU]On Behalf Of
Zlatko Krastev/ACIT
Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 8:13 AM
To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
Subject: Re: Journaling


So if we divide the drives in separate categories:
1. Locally attached IDE/SCSI disks - direct-attached-storage (DAS)
2. Direct FC-attached to single system (I am avoiding to use non-shared
term here) - again DAS but using FC
3. SAN-attached disks/subsystems used by single server -
SAN-attached-storage (SAS)
4. SAN-attached disks/subsystems used by several servers but no concurrent
acces to same LUN (again I will not call them SAN-shared to avoid
confusion) - SAS
5. SAN-attached disks/subsystems used by several servers with concurrent
acces to same LUN (in our case MSCS) - SAS
6. LANMAN shares mounted on the TSM client - network-attached-storage
(NAS)

which one ought to be able to use journaling???
IMO categories 1,2,3,4&5 ought to be assumed "local" from Windows point of
view (they are accessed through HBAs not by LAN). So they ought to be
detected by TSM client's "all-local" domain except #5. The latter is not
an exception in attachment but is specifically treated in a MSCS
environment (and *is* supported since v5.1)

Bottom line: DAS & SAS ought to be supported for journaling while NAS
would be normal to expect is not supported.
Back to Geoff's problem - if I understood it correct his configuration is
in 3-rd or 4-th category. In both cases it *should* work.
I guess the support person was confused by somewhere used word "shared"
and categorized the case in #6 (and the requirement should be not for
product enhancement but for support staff education)

Zlatko Krastev
IT Consultant






Pete Tanenhaus <tanenhau AT US.IBM DOT COM>
Sent by: "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU>
07.11.2002 23:10
Please respond to "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager"


        To:     ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
        cc:
        Subject:        Re: Journaling


By nonlocal I did mean network drives.

To be more precise, drives that NT considers to be network drives.

To perfectly honest, I'm not all that familiar with SAN and haven't tried
to journal a SAN attached device.

Journal Based Backup relies on the Win32 api ReadDirectoryChangesW to
monitor file system change activity.

If this api will work with a SAN attached device (it doesn't with mapped
drives),
Journal Based Backup will work, if it doesn't it won't.

It hasn't been tested so I can neither confirm nor deny that it will/won't
work, and of course the official
position will be that if it hasn't been tested we don't support it.

If you are in a position to try it please post your results on the list,
I'd be interested.

Implementing Jbb on any type of NAS device would be difficult as  NAS
boxes
only implement (actually
simulate might be a better term) a portion of the NT file system and any
type of journaling solution
would have to work in the context of the file system api support the
particular NAS vendor provides,
and I seriously doubt (but don't know for sure) that any type change
monitor support would be available, and
even if were it would probably be specific to the particular NAS box
meaning that we potentially would
have to implement a different solution each specific NAS filer.


Pete Tanenhaus
Tivoli Storage Solutions Software Development
email: tanenhau AT us.ibm DOT com
tieline: 320.8778, external: 607.754.4213

"Those who refuse to challenge authority are condemned to conform to it"

---------------------- Forwarded by Pete Tanenhaus/San Jose/IBM on
11/07/2002 03:56 PM ---------------------------

"Whitlow, Don" <Don.Whitlow AT QG DOT COM>@VM.MARIST.EDU> on 11/07/2002 03:19:47
PM

Please respond to "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU>

Sent by:    "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU>


To:    ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
cc:
Subject:    Re: Journaling



Pete,
Thanks for the reply. However, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why
this should not work. When you say a non-local filesystem, are you by any
chance meaning anything mounted via a connection to a share on another
Win32
box? Or maybe via NFS?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just having a hard time seeing how the
OS sees the distinction between a disk connected via a SCSI HBA vs. a disk
on a SAN connected via an FC HBA. An I/O request to either should be
exactly
the same as far as the O/S and anything else at the application layer is
concerned. I'm wondering if maybe we just have a misunderstanding over
semantics?

Again, appreciate the feedback. I'm just trying to clarify the situation
as
we have a box or two that would probably benefit from journaling, but the
disk on those servers are SAN-Attached.

Sincerely,
Don Whitlow
Quad/Graphics, Inc.
Manager - Enterprise Computing
Don.Whitlow AT qg DOT com


-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Tanenhaus [mailto:tanenhau AT US.IBM DOT COM]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 1:57 PM
To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
Subject: Re: Journaling


Unfortunately this is beyond our (development's) control.

The Microsoft Win32 api used to monitor file system changes does not
support non-local file systems.

It might be possible to write some sort of file system extension (filter)
to implement this type of support but
it would be a major development undertaking and would involve a
considerable investment of time and
resource which I'm not sure management would be willing to consider.


Pete Tanenhaus
Tivoli Storage Solutions Software Development
email: tanenhau AT us.ibm DOT com
tieline: 320.8778, external: 607.754.4213

"Those who refuse to challenge authority are condemned to conform to it"

---------------------- Forwarded by Pete Tanenhaus/San Jose/IBM on
11/07/2002 02:52 PM ---------------------------

"Whitlow, Don" <Don.Whitlow AT QG DOT COM>@VM.MARIST.EDU> on 11/07/2002 02:24:36
PM

Please respond to "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU>

Sent by:    "ADSM: Dist Stor Manager" <ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU>


To:    ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
cc:
Subject:    Re: Journaling



I may be adding more questions than I am answering, but why should it
matter
if a disk is SAN-based vs. DAS (local)? I would assume journaling would
work
at the drive letter (logical) level, meaning it would be clueless as to
the
underlying disk access method. To the O/S and software, it should just
look
like a drive/volume.

Maybe I'm missing something more to the puzzle. But I would think it would
work for you.

Good luck
Don

-----Original Message-----
From: Gill, Geoffrey L. [mailto:GEOFFREY.L.GILL AT SAIC DOT COM]
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 12:28 PM
To: ADSM-L AT VM.MARIST DOT EDU
Subject: Journaling


Ok I finally figured out why journaling is not working on this server.
It's
because the 4 million plus files are on a SAN attached disk and journaling
does not support that, only local.

What good is that????? Is there any good reason to use SAN disk these days
anyway?
Geoff Gill
TSM Administrator
NT Systems Support Engineer
SAIC
E-Mail:    <mailto:gillg AT saic DOT com> gillg AT saic DOT com
Phone:  (858) 826-4062
  Pager:   (877) 905-7154

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>