Veritas-bu

[Veritas-bu] Re: VTL vs. Disk based backups

2005-12-02 11:09:02
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Re: VTL vs. Disk based backups
From: Bill_Jorgensen AT csgsystems DOT com (Jorgensen, Bill)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 09:09:02 -0700
Mark:

I think there are some reasons why you would want to get away from tape. Tape 
will always be with us. I have not followed this thread closely, but let me say 
that disk-based storage has its merits.

1.) No human interaction when it comes to restorals. No tapes, no people to 
lose them. Our offsite vendor is unable to locate 26 of our tapes. This is 
particularly important as it applies to BCP/DR-related recovery.

2.) Better reliability in terms of the data set archived. Other people may have 
better results. We have not. We have missed restorals due to a media read/write 
errors. Our BCP trials fail for the same reason.

3.) Scalability. I disagree. If I have to add tape drives I have to burn ports 
on the SAN director. "Buy more tapes." I agree that is easy. Your view of disk 
does not seem to fit what I am aware of. If you add disk it is added and 
available. There could be some subsystems that do not work quite that easy, but 
the ones I have investigated are easy to enlarge. As for footprint I am aware 
of a vendor that has 228T's with two controllers and a screen in one cabinet. 
Once they go to larger ATA drives the data footprint will be even larger.

The bottom line is that for every point someone makes for tape I can find one 
for disk. I am biased - away from tape and towards disk. This is in large part 
due to the headaches tape provides for me day-to-day. The decision has to be 
business driven. The point is there will be situations where tape is the answer 
and others where disk works best. The upgrade of our backup environment will be 
heterogeneous. There are pros and cons to both.

Later,

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: veritas-bu-admin AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu [mailto:veritas-bu-admin 
AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu] On Behalf Of Mark Pinder
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:51 AM
To: veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
Subject: [Veritas-bu] Re: VTL vs. Disk based backups

Greg,
        I've got to go with William in that there is a lot of information that 
is needed to make the qualitative judgments you are up against, but I do have a 
couple of points I think are worth making on the technology side: 
        The following is a copy of a previous response post regarding VTL VS 
tape post I made. I hope you find it useful:

<snip>
        I'll start by telling you I'm in the tape backup industry as an SE, so 
the message you are about to get is biased. :-) 
        Having that out in the open, I find it interesting that you are 
considering moving your backups from tape (or creating a new backup 
environment) by using a box that pretends that it is tape. 
        I got the following directly from the EMC website at: 
http://www.emc.com/products/systems/clariion_disk/ 

<snip>
An alternative to traditional tape-based solutions, CLARiiON Disk Library 
integrates low-cost ATA drives, tape emulation software...
<snip>

        Disk manufacturers would love for folks to believe that they can (read 
should) eliminate tape from the world. Disk is not (for the most part) 
portable. It does not have the scalability of tape (Need space? Add a tape or 
add a disk, reconfigure, redistribute data because it's a raid config, 
re-label). 
        VTL's (Virtual Tape Library), which is really what EMC wants to sell 
you, sound like a great idea. I believe you get the worst of both worlds (tape 
and disk) when you buy one. Scalability is sacrificed (disk issue), it's not 
portable (disk issue) and it still requires backup SW and all the management 
(tape issue).
        I must also agree with Katherine and tell you that the biggest problem 
we have is customers being able to keep their LTO-3 drives busy enough. A lot 
of our customer's can't rip their data off disk and send it to tape fast 
enough. SATA or ATA disks are S L O W compared to an LTO-3 drive (80MB/sec 
native), even in a fast raid config.
        The one advantage that disk does have over tape is that is completes a 
"file space forward 10,000" command immediately. Please do remember that this 
comes with a cost. Electricity and cooling are not cheap and storage density 
(how much space in your data center) are worse for disk than tape. I can put 
47.5 TB and 12 Tape drives in one rack space and this includes the device 
management console and a color GUI interface on a 8 inch diagonal touch 
screen). I doubt disk can match that. 
        Disk to disk to tape has some advantages for high availability 
applications or critical restore environments and this should not be ignored if 
you have things that require that level of availability for restores. However, 
you will have a heck of a time sending your disk array offsite in a DR 
situation. :-)
        Lastly, I'd suggest you go investigate your options and get some 
(relatively) unbiased assessments of the pros and cons. I did a search on 
www.searchstorage.com for "Tape VS disk" and it gave quite a few "expert 
opinion" docs to read. The firs one on the list was entitled "Toigo talks disk 
vs. tape" and can be found at 
http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/qna/0,289202,sid5_gci839353,00.html.
 
        I hope this helps. Ping me offline if you would like to talk about it 
more beyond the group level discussion.
<snip> 


Mark Pinder : 
Systems Engineer: 
Spectra Logic : www.spectralogic.com 





To: veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] VTL vs. Disk based backups
From: william.d.brown AT gsk DOT com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:06:56 +0000

I think you have got to tell us a bit more about the issue you are trying to 
address.

Are you looking to get rid of tape altogether?   Or are you looking at 
alternatives as a primary backup, with a tape as secondary offsite copy?

Could you use the ability of FalconStor and NetApps to clone data cross-site, 
do you have the WAN bandwidth, or do you have just one site?

Are you just trying to fix slow clients?

What kind of DR do you have to provide? - e.g you may absolutely need tapes 
ready to send to a DR site, with picking lists per application to suit your 
recovery priorities.

Is EMC including Clariion or would using the EMC CDL mean supporting another 
disk array type?

Do your NetApps have SnapMirror/SnapVault/OSSV?

Do you have loads to spend? (you don't have to answer that...)

-----
People who do this (and we don't...yet) have very different ways even of using 
VTLs.  As Charles pointed out, NetApp and NBU 6 are designed to do some cool 
things.

William D L Brown




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