Veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] Tapeless backup environments?

2007-09-22 11:02:04
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Tapeless backup environments?
From: Justin Piszcz <jpiszcz AT lucidpixels DOT com>
To: Ed Wilts <ewilts AT ewilts DOT org>
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:28:07 -0400 (EDT)
Don't even get me started on SANs, I have seen the entire loss of an MTI 
(now EMC) SAN and with the new Claiiron SANS I have seen entire shelves go 
off-line due to bad SPAs etc, IMO not reliable.

Also with disk, I have a question with VTLs, etc, if I am feeding multiple 
LTO-3 tape drives using 10Gbps; what type of disk/VTL (not SAN) is out 
there that can accept multiple 10Gbps streams/data and will not choke?

VTLs seem like a good idea for filesystem backups but for on-demand 
database backups, I do not see them as the holy grail.

Justin.

  On Sat, 22 Sep 2007, Ed Wilts wrote:

> 1)  Disk ages and breaks too.
> 2)  Transport is cheap.  I'd be surprised if I couldn't transport a thousand
> tapes for the cost of a terabyte of storage.  Bandwidth to move data is
> *NOT* cheap.  20GB/day requires 3Mbps of pipe.
> 3)  I spend more time replacing disk drives than I do replacing tapes or
> tape drives.   To back up my 1200 SAN-based spindles, I have 6 LTO-3 drives.
> It sounds like you need to either replace your tape drives or treat them
> better.  We do work on our robots perhaps once every few months.  We replace
> disk drives on a weekly basis.  NetBackup requires a *lot* more time than
> the robots or the disk drives ever will.
>
>   .../Ed
>
> --
> Ed Wilts, RHCE, BCFP, BCSD
> Mounds View, MN, USA
> mailto:ewilts AT ewilts DOT org
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: veritas-bu-bounces AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu [mailto:veritas-bu-
>> bounces AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Lightner
>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 9:34 AM
>> To: Justin Piszcz
>> Cc: veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
>> Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Tapeless backup environments?
>>
>> Disk is not cheaper?  You've done a cost analysis?
>>
>> Not saying you're wrong and I haven't done an analysis but I'd be
>> surprised if disks didn't actually work out to be cheaper over time:
>>
>> 1) Tapes age/break - We buy on average several hundred tapes a year -
>> support on a disk array for failing disks may or may not be more
>> expensive.
>>
>> 2) Transport/storage - We have to pay for offsite storage and transfer
>> -
>> it seems just putting an array in offsite facility would eliminate the
>> need for transportation (in trucks) cost.  Of course there would be
>> cost
>> in the data transfer disk to disk but since everyone seems to have
>> connectivity over the internet it might be possible to do this using a
>> B2B link rather than via dedicated circuits.
>>
>> 3) Labor cost in dealing with mechanical failures of robots.   This one
>> is hidden in salary but every time I have to work on a robot it means I
>> can't be working on something else.   While disk drives fail it doesn't
>> seem to happen nearly as often as having to fish a tape out of a drive
>> or the tape drive itself having failed.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Justin Piszcz [mailto:jpiszcz AT lucidpixels DOT com]
>> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 10:08 AM
>> To: Jeff Lightner
>> Cc: veritas-bu AT mailman.eng.auburn DOT edu
>> Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] Tapeless backup environments?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Jeff Lightner wrote:
>>
>>> Yesterday our director said that he doesn't intend to ever upgrade
>>> existing STK L700 because eventually we'll go tapeless as that is
>> what
>>> the industry is doing.   The idea being we'd have our disk backup
>>> devices here (e.g. Data Domain) and transfer to offsite storage to
>>> another disk device so as to eliminate the need for ever transporting
>>> tapes.
>>>
>>> It made me wonder if anyone was actually doing the above already or
>> was
>>> planning to do so?
>>>
>>
>> That seems to be the way people are 'thinking' but the bottom line is
>> disk
>> still is not cheaper than LTO-3 tape and there are a lot of advantages
>> to
>> tape; however, convicing management of this is an uphill battle.
>>
>> Justin.
>
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